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Talk:Rapid Fire
This solves some of the problems that Marksmanship influenced Rangers have with DoT, you used to need to splash Beast Mastery (For inneficient speed buffs) or use Lightning Reflexes which required too much investment into expertise to reduce its downtime/energy cost added to the energy costs of your attack skills. I for one love this skill, and love its name even more. Zulu Inuoe 06:38, 31 July 2007 (CDT) "only works with bows" is this confirmed the skill description says nothing to imply this :Though, to be realistic, you'd be an imbecile if you used this with something OTHER than a bow, seeing how it's linked with marks... --Gimmethegepgun 08:45, 2 August 2007 (CDT) ::some people like to do that personaly i would say your an imbecile for useing this at all seeing as how its a preperation but thats just me. ::Per Izzy, this does only work with bows. Despite what you say, if it worked with non-bow weapons, we'd see Sins and Wars speccing just enough into marks to get use out of this. Personally I think this needs to be a stance to see any use though. Arshay Duskbrow 19:28, 2 August 2007 (CDT) :::If it was a stance then Tiger's Fury, Bestial Fury, and Heket's Rampage would be basically pointless --Gimmethegepgun 06:11, 4 August 2007 (CDT) Wewt, IAS preperation. ::::Not if the stance still only worked while using a bow. Although I can't help but add that those stances are fairly useless anyway... Arshay Duskbrow 22:38, 4 August 2007 (CDT) :::::It would be totally worthless compared to TF, BF, HR, etc. or even good old Lightning Reflexes...except for the fact that it can be kept up infinitely, and doesn't require a three-way attribute split to do so. Definitely oriented towards pure Marksmen builds. (T/ ) 06:27, 4 August 2007 (CDT) ::::::I don't really like this, better to take RtW and some IAS stance. The Hobo 06:29, 4 August 2007 (CDT) :::::::Well you gotta admit, points to Beast Mastery always makes you feel kinda...guilty. What other IAS staces are there anyways with reasonable duration/recharge rate? Flail? :) (T/ ) 06:33, 4 August 2007 (CDT) Yep, Flail is teh winnar here. Using your prep to attack faster seems like a huge waste when skills like Apply Poison, RtW or CG exist. The Hobo 06:52, 4 August 2007 (CDT) :Heh. Well, if/when Rangers ever get some really nice Stances in Expertise or Marksmanship that can be kept up infinitely, then perhaps this will see some use. Kinda like a Natural Stride but for Expertise. (T/ ) 06:56, 4 August 2007 (CDT) Darn this skill would be great with a Vow of Strength ranger build. :VoS builds use RtW because it gives extra damage, which is multiplied by VoS --Gimmethegepgun 15:55, 4 August 2007 (CDT) This skill feels kinda pointless, and is exaggerated by the fact it synergises with Practiced Stance >.> I suppose I could see how this might be useful. Counters Wild Blow which removes stances and most of the Ranger's IAS stances have huge recharge times. Preparations cannot be removed except by interrupting them. Admittedly, there aren't a lot of places where Wild Blow would be used except in some PvP. I'd certainly use it for when i do CMs. Swapping out RtW for FW on my conditions ranger. --BeeD 00:56, 6 August 2007 (CDT) :Very few people bring Wild Blow except for Dervs. Interrupters are everywhere, even in pve. In other words: this skill is meh. The Hobo 20:24, 6 August 2007 (CDT) ::Hah, Dervs never even used to bring Wild Blow until I made the Lyssa's Avatar build. --Boottspurr 09:25, 7 August 2007 (CDT) :::No. That's not true. I had not even been reading builds on here/PvXwiki and I had a friend bring Wild Blow on a derv. The Paintballer (T/ ) This skill is worthless. Looks like the several 'bows are underpowered' idiots I've seen requesting this have got their wish. Good if it was a stance of course, near junk as a prep. Between frenzy, flail, hekets and tf I will never use this. Phool 20:43, 7 August 2007 (CDT) Wasted prep, no thank you. PvEreanor 11:53, 8 August 2007 (CDT) :Making this a stance would render all the other IAS stances useless, not to mention that this would be WAY overpowered. If you look at all the other IAS skills that Rangers (using secondary prof ones aside) have access to, ALL but one are linked to Beast Mastery. Bestial/Tiger's Fury only grant a 25% boost but disables your non-attack skills. Heket's Rampage ends if you use an attack skill. Rampage as One needs a pet and Lightning Reflexes has a 30s recharge. The only drawback Rapid Fire has is a longer cast time, but it has a huge duration for an IAS and it can be maintained indefinitely. Personally, I'd say this has definite potential. --BeeD 22:55, 8 August 2007 (CDT) ::"Only" drawback? You mean other than that huge "no preps" one? DKS01 20:10, 19 August 2007 (CDT) Let's do the math Considering this is a full-archer skill, we'll calculate with 16 Marksmanship on a lvl20 character. Our target will have 70 Armor Rating, thus an Armor Effect of 96%. Damage is (15-28) x 96% = (14-27). Average damage per hit is 21. (Source:Damage calculation) Calculating Damage Per Second (DPS): (Average Damage/Attack Speed) = DPS With 16 Marksmanship, the best option to use instead of Rapid Fire is Read the Wind, adding +10 damage to each arrow. Average damage would be 31. Conclusion: Heck with Rapid Fire, I'm not trading faster arrow flight for a little bit of damage. PvEreanor 11:00, 9 August 2007 (CDT) :Except that if you read the Attack speed article, you'd realize how your math is flawed. A 33% IAS actually increases the overall attack rate by nearly 50% (49.3%) and results in quite a bit higher damage than you stated. And Hornbow calculation is off because it has armor penetration. Also, more flaws exist in that effective 70 AL is approximately a 16% damage reduction, and not 4%. Not to mention crits... --Gimmethegepgun 11:03, 9 August 2007 (CDT) ::Normal Attack Speed DPS for Recurve Bow is 8.75 ---> 8.75 + 50% = 13.1 PvEreanor 11:13, 9 August 2007 (CDT) :::Fine, but my other points still stand --Gimmethegepgun 11:18, 9 August 2007 (CDT) ::::Recurve bow: 2.4 Normal Attack Speed. *10 seconds/2.4 (NAS) = 4.16 hits. *10 seconds/1.6 (33%IAS) = 6.25 hits.(4.16 + 50% = 6.25) *4.16 hits x 31 Average damage = 129.16 Damage in 10 seconds *6.25 hits x 21 Average damage = 131.25 Damage in 10 seconds. Same thing. I'm just comparing Rapid Fire with Read the Wind. Your other points may still stand, but my conclusion is still right. :::::YOU DIDNT ADD IN THE ARMOR PENETRATION FROM THE HORNBOW BUDDY. :And then what happens if you add in a Vampiric mod, Conjure, or even moreso, VoS? That is what this is meant for --Gimmethegepgun 11:30, 9 August 2007 (CDT) :::or kindle or glass arrows perhaps...? The can't make the comparison you seem to be trying to. At least until a stance version of a/p, kindle and rtw are made. Using this over hekets + another prep with VoS would generally be very stupid, despite that 33% IAS can be relied upon to increase the dps by considerably more than an extra few points. (edit conflict) Phool 11:58, 9 August 2007 (CDT) ::If you bring bonus damage and Elites to the discussion. Here's my answer PvEreanor 11:54, 9 August 2007 (CDT) Probably will own. [[User:Readem|'Readem']] (''talk''* ) 16:59, 15 August 2007 (CDT) :Probably. The Hobo 17:57, 15 August 2007 (CDT) :: Point Blank/Zojun's Shot need to have a 2 second recharge so you can spam them non-stop. Mending Touch should be also moved to Healing Prayers and Healing Touch should be improved, to give Rangers a replacement for Troll Unguent if they want to spec out of Wilderness Survival (meaning that this build could spec 14 Expertise, 12 Marksmanship, 6 Healing). With those improvements, this build MIGHT be as good as the standard Burning Arrow template. You're giving up up Savage Shot, one of the most powerful non-Elites in the game, in order to do more damage (but only at half-range, and it's perhaps not more damage at all in a large battle when you consider how degen can be spread with Apply Poison) and to have Escape instead of Natural Stride. Zuranthium 13:45, 16 August 2007 (CDT) :::Healing touch is not supposed to be used by any other profession other than monk. Don't get your hopes up bud. --Lann 15:33, 16 August 2007 (CDT) ::::Perhaps that was ANET's intention when they first made the skill, but it was a bad idea that is way outdated now. Nobody at all uses the skill (for real PvP)...clearly needs to be improved. Zuranthium 20:08, 20 August 2007 (CDT) :::::D-shot because it is god-mode. This is also for gank, and speaking that it can afford to have less amounts of expertise, it can run a high Marks count, thus perhaps bring its damage for npc's, close to that of BA's. More defense as well through Escape. [[User:Readem|'Readem']] (''talk''* ) 18:02, 16 August 2007 (CDT) Only With Bows Are you sure? Could be my eyes, but I just tried it with daggers in Temple of Balthazar...-218.103.243.10 09:47, 26 August 2007 (CDT) :It's pretty daft to use this with anything other than a bow. Why else would you have points in Marksmanship? For Favorable Winds? >.> 2 second cast time IAS ftl (usually). (T/ ) 09:53, 26 August 2007 (CDT) Archers die fast. I miss AoD Sins. SPs are so boring. Had fun with a few BYOB GvGs just now. Maan. I've missed overextending so much ever since I started playing mesmer. Some bullshit about mesmer being squishy.. pfft. But anyway, pretty high DPS with just repeating, almost 0 energy problems (zealous) for a sin, and blossom is actually funny against herowat. AoD is always fun to play with, and it's... hmm, it's faster than any other solo ganker, though then again those are out of style now. The DPS is still good enough to outpressure non flagstand healing. Chance of it being ever used = 0.01%, but, hey, it's good to dream. -Silk Weaker :Looks fun but still seems like a waste of Attribute points. I thought R/A was one of those dumb Wammo-like combos anyways. I see how it works - you cast your IAS and then Shadow Step in for the quick kill. I guess in PvP you can get away with that as a solo ganker or in splits or taking out dumb NPCs. Though it seems you can do the same job with just Assassin skills for faster selfheal and I guess A/W for an IAS. And in PvE this is not viable at all, unless you wanna take out just one enemy quick. Meh. (T/ ) 10:06, 26 August 2007 (CDT) ::It is a bit of a gimmick, yeah, but try it and you might like it. I'll try to explain why it works (if not optimally) ::Assassins tend to have lulls between their attacks, due perhaps to their recharge (which would be the case if you use horns), or waiting/choosing a unprotted target, and that 2 seconds plus aftercast is really not much of a problem. It really just stops you from auto-attacking, which, if you're a warrior, is really bad since your normal attacks deal a ton of damage and gains adrenaline, but no real losses for someone using assassin skills. ::Compared to sins: I like Troll as a heal, and natural stride as an option, or rez sig, but that's me. The DPS, trust me, is a lot higher, and against NPCs, this is really much faster if you are experienced with the layout and the number of repeating strikes before blossom. In a split, it is very good in that the damage it does can usually ourpressure the enemy's healing, but still have shadow step unike warriors. I tried it in a 3 man split, I believe, and then had SoR. Switching between targets is lots of fun with AoD, and I imagine it's the same with /rt splits using weapon of warding. ::The thing is with expertise, allowing an infinite spam of repeating strike, which is about 40 damage on warriors (armor ignore for the most part), which is okay. Death Blossom is so fun on frenzy warriors. Believe it or not, this thing can line back aginst melee heavy teams, though I must admit that guild sucked. But anyway, you can loop an infinite chain of attacks: Fox, Fang, Repeating, Repeating, Repeating, Blossom, Fox, Fang, Repeating... etc, but with only 1 repeating without an IAS. That's about +26 damage average, pretty decent for a novel idea. ::AoD is just awesome. Sorry for repeating it. But I stepped to that LoD for every spike, and he had nothing left to infuse. I can also afford to spam the chains since the recharge is low, no energy issues, and the damage helps for the pressure at the same time. ::Finally, an amazing fact: most damage against warriors or paragons hit just below 60, meaning that spirt bond = lol. -Silk Weaker 10:16, 26 August 2007 (CDT) :::You could use Poison Tip Signet if you have that much downtime :p Well, I'll take your word for it then, and just assume all those past R/A builds were crappy. Rapid Fire still ftl on an archer though. Ironic isn't it >.> just like Necrosis sigh... (T/ ) 10:21, 26 August 2007 (CDT) ::::It does, doesn't it? Oh, well. But anyway, R/A is as close to it being useful as it can get, I think. Rangers rely on attack skills or preperations (glass arrow + conjure) for damage, and these sin skills are the only ones that recharge fast enough. Unless. Don't know, dual point blank shot? I think not. -Silk Weaker 10:24, 26 August 2007 (CDT) :::::No, I've done that. R/W is better: Dual/Triple/Forked with a Flatbow kills low-armor Casters, if a Warrior closes in switch to Shortbow and use Point Blank/Zojun's...maybe swap Favorable Winds for a cancelstance too. Conjures R/E take attribute points and limit you to either a Fiery, Shocking, or Icy bow - would rather use Zealous, plus they can be removed and long recharge time, damage does not ignore damage either. In this setup Flail > Rapid Fire in almost everyway for IAS. Altough there is a small flaw. If you aren't under IAS you need one extra second between being able to spam Point Blank and Zojun's (usually I use Needling Shot). So under IAS the problem is exacerbated. (T/ ) 10:34, 26 August 2007 (CDT) /Facepalm I meant rapid fire, not IAS. See: "Rangers rely on attack skills or preperations (glass arrow + conjure) for damage" Flail is pretty much a free IAS for PvE Bow or even Spear characters, anyway, but it has its own restrictions, no?-Silk Weaker 16:38, 26 August 2007 (CDT) I've played with this a bit and only good use i've found on a ranger is to squeeze some more energy out my zelouse shortbow wile using broadhead arrow in pve. I dont much like the skill at all. Preps are to important for otherthings like adding dmg, arrow speed, conditions, or even interupts. Hell id rather use that other crappy GW:EN prep than this at least it adds some dmg and energy managment.68.39.131.84 22:38, 26 August 2007 (CDT) Bottom line: for archers, IAS is used for damage, in wich case, Glass Arrows will always FTW as a prep, and Flail will always be it's best buddy. This is a waste of a skill (for an archer). PvEreanor 10:03, 27 August 2007 (CDT) No u. [[User:Readem|'Readem']] (''talk''* ) 18:33, 27 August 2007 (CDT) : PvEreanor 23:09, 27 August 2007 (CDT) ::Your build is better. Wish I could have 2 copies of one skill too... [[User:Readem|'Readem']] (''talk''* ) 21:30, 30 August 2007 (CDT) :::Thanks, it's inspired by Entropy's current featured build. Thing is, 33%IAS equals +50% DPS, so you gotta judge Rapid Fire in damage terms, with damage focused builds in mind. Having said that, for Rapid Fire to be viable, 50% of your DPS should be more than 10 to replace RtW ("best" non-elite prep), and more than 19 to replace Glass Arrows (best damage elite). Now, 10<19 DPS damage-dealing-archer builds are LAME, and Rapid Fire is not gonna fix that. Currently, best 20+ DPS damage-focused builds are the ones using the recently buffed half-ranged twin bow attacks, with needling shot as a finisher, and those build's timing makes using IAS pretty messy and unnecessary. In any case, Flail would be the choice. Rapid Fire looks good at first, but after some thinking, you'll realize it's a bad prep. We have a "less energy cost; +10 damage" prep (Expert Focus), and a "faster flight; +10 damage" prep (Read the Wind), why not a "33%IAS; +10 damage" prep? (may be just 25% for balance sake). Rapid Fire should be the pure damage busting non-elite prep we are missing. Anerd's gotta buff it. PvEreanor 00:15, 31 August 2007 (CDT) Hey, Silk, why not try out the standard Moebius sin with R/A? Put Expertise at 13, Dagger Mastery at max, and 8 or so in Marksmanship. You should be able to repeatedly churn out some impressive damage with a +33% attack speed and continual Moebius/DB spam. - Vermain 17:13, 1 September 2007 (CDT) Peculiar how Rapid Fire is NOT Bow Only, but Expert's Focus IS Bow Only... If Expert's Focus wasn't Bow Only, you would probably have spent all weekend playing around with a fair few R/A builds by now. - jzf. Will be nerfed This will be nerfed, cause this is great advantage for warriors; Preparation, can use sprint to kill kiters and prep won't get cancelled, cause sprint is stance. :/ This is too crappy to get nerfed. I thought of using it on a warrior, but the attribute points wasted on Marksmanship to make RF viable, will probably give more advantages on another attribute. Even at 10 marksmanship, you'll be stoping to re-apply the prep every 18 seconds, and that sucks. If you've played with a Dervish you know what I mean. BTW, running faster isn't the best kiting-counter, it's snaring. PvEreanor 13:08, 3 September 2007 (CDT) :This only works with bows. So no, it's useless for wars. Arshay Duskbrow 15:59, 3 September 2007 (CDT) ::Since when does it only work with bows? It's been tested above as working with daggers(a build was even posted using it), and the article's main page says it works with all weapons. DKS01 16:23, 3 September 2007 (CDT) :::There is a thread on this on Izzy's talk page in the official wiki. BftP 16:31, 3 September 2007 (CDT) ::::It's not supposed to work with other weapons, but it does. It should be fixed soon though. --Kale Ironfist 21:07, 3 September 2007 (CDT) :::::Too bad, that was about the only hope it EVER had of being a viable prep/IAS... >.> I have an idea for a Better Rapid Fire: reduce IAS to 25% or maybe even 15%, and cause Arrows to fly at 1.25 times normal speed. Not as accurate as RtW, only half of most IAS, but then it actually sorta has a use. (T/ ) 21:18, 3 September 2007 (CDT) Wait, this currently works with other weapons? I must abuse this in my hammer build IMMEDIATELY! Arshay Duskbrow 22:48, 3 September 2007 (CDT) :*Watches Arshay go Rampage as One without said elite and without a pet* This should be interesting... --Kale Ironfist 22:55, 3 September 2007 (CDT) ::Well actually...the build I've been using lately is something like this: So I basically have permanant 33% IAS anyway. ;D Arshay Duskbrow 23:10, 3 September 2007 (CDT) It's September 4th, and Rapid Fire's just been hit with the nerf bat, as predicted. Although, as nerfs go, this one isn't so bad -- they've just restricted the skill to only bows. Fixed According to the update, this was just fixed....someone with GW:EN check it, I went ahead and removed the note though. --Mwpeck 23:07, 4 September 2007 (CDT) :"Fixed" as in broken. :p It now only works with bows, but that means the description is now wrong. It still only says "you attack 33% faster" when it should say "you attack 33% faster while using a bow." So, broken... ::Sarcasm on: Oh! why not just make it: ... you attack 33% faster, cannot be used with daggers! Sarcasm off. lol! they nerfed warriors skills as hell because assassins, now they temporary added a way to have +33% atack speed in an assassin for up to 21 seconds!!! -[[User:NeHoMaR|'NeHoMaR']] 04:34, 5 September 2007 (CDT) :::Well, seeing as this is a Marksmanship attribute-related skill, I would assume it should have only affected bows from the start....crappy skill-description wording WTL. --Mwpeck 10:31, 5 September 2007 (CDT) ::::I'm wasnt afraid of a sin running around with this. They can feel free to waste atts. on marksmanship for just an IAS....lol :::::In the notes shouldn't it count as a bug? ~~ [[User:frvwfr2|'frvwfr2']] (T/ ) 19:25, 11 September 2007 (CDT) ::::::I changed it. ~~ [[User:frvwfr2|'frvwfr2']] (T/ ) 19:44, 12 September 2007 (CDT) :::::::It's like Hundred Blades, linked so it isn't usable with a hammer (well, sort of, just to make it clear). This is linked to marks, so logically it is only for bows, right? Not a bug, imho --84.24.206.123 15:38, 18 September 2007 (CDT) ::::::::It does say Rapid Fire for a reason, daggers don't "fire", same with other weapons. Plus the link to marks. The bug notice should be removed and the skill re-worded. --Atla 04:01, 19 September 2007 (CDT) The revisions on the table near the top confused me. If I have a Longbow at 15 Marksmanship, which does more damage over time: Rapid Fire or Read The Wind? I'm interested in this because I'm sick of Lightning Reflexes duration. EDIT: Anybody ever gonna answer me? [[User:Hisoka_Kazemeijin|'Kaze']] 06:05, 5 June 2008 (UTC) :According to the table, Rapid Fire would do slightly more damage, assuming all your attacks hit. 02:33, 17 June 2008 (UTC) Stack with OTHER IAS's? I don't really know, so does it stack with other IAS's? :IAS never stacks past 33% no matter what you do. (T/ ) 00:08, 25 November 2008 (UTC) ::Actually, it CAN sometimes have an effect (when there's an attack speed reduction on you), see stacking --Gimmethegepgun 00:11, 25 November 2008 (UTC) :::Thanks for providing link that proves my point? o_O (T/ ) 00:14, 25 November 2008 (UTC) ::::Actually, it disproves you, because there WOULD be an effect if someone used Faintheartedness on you and you used this and some other IAS rather than just this and Faintheart --Gimmethegepgun 00:17, 25 November 2008 (UTC) :::::The table says that attack speed cannot stack past 33% and that was the question being asked. Faintheartedness etc. is irrelevant. All IAS stack. They just don't have any effect past 33%. (T/ ) 00:20, 25 November 2008 (UTC) ::::::Yeah, I gues I kinda misread your comment, but we're still both right. Technically it WILL stack with others if there's a reduction thrown in :P --Gimmethegepgun 00:22, 25 November 2008 (UTC)